City Council chooses to keep mostly Christian prayers at public meetings

“We say this in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.” — City council members bow their heads during Christian prayers at a public meeting at City Hall, September 2, 2015

At their workshop Monday evening, Grand Junction City Council decided mixing religion with government was a good thing to do, and they would continue to do it.

City Manager Greg Caton told council members the City’s invocation policy dates back to 2008, saying they all inherited the practice. Council had an opportunity Monday at their workshop to discontinue prayers at City Council meetings and avoid further controversy over the City’s persistent endorsement of religion, modify the current policy or substitute a moment of silence instead.

But history shows the City of Grand Junction always has a hard time coming into the 21st Century.

Religious invocations are a provincial throwback. Out of 21 other Colorado cities, the Daily Sentinel reported that only two still have invocations at city council meetings, and they are not typically a feature at city council meetings in any large American cities. Councilman Chris Kennedy added to the list of cities that don’t pray at their meetings, saying Delta, Telluride, Ouray, Ridgway, Crested Butte and Mount Crested Butte don’t have invocations at their city council meetings. He said everyone’s spiritual journey is unique, and religion is not “one size fits all,” adding that “Most of the time, the City’s invocations are done from a Christian mindset,” and given in the name of Jesus Christ. Kennedy added “It’s proselytizing. I don’t appreciate it.” Kennedy said the invocation “is sanctimonious,” that a moment of silence would be fine, but he would prefer to get right down to working on City business at their meetings.

City Council member Barbara Traylor Smith: “Our country was founded on Christian principles.”

Republican City Council member Barbara Traylor Smith voted against the letter supporting DACA recipients in our community, and thinks America was founded as a Christian nation.

Incredibly, Councilor Barbara Traylor-Smith (BTS) said “I believe our country was founded on Christian principles. I don’t know how anyone gets through their day without praying for someone.” She invoked the founding fathers and said “Congress does it” [prays at meetings] and people think it’s a “valuable piece” of meetings.

To some surprise, Bennett Boeschenstein, who is normally among the more progressive thinkers on Council, said he agreed with Barbara Traylor-Smith, that the system we currently have is good, and that “a lot of times no one shows up and we have a moment of silence.”

Duke Wortmann said he’s been a born-again Christian for ten years, likes the invocation and wants to keep it.

Phyllis Norris appeared reasonable, and came down in between the others and recognized that the sectarian public prayers are offensive to some citizens. “I have nothing against religion,” she said, “but some people don’t want to hear it.” She said she’s seen people wait outside Council meetings for the prayers to finish before coming in. “I’m not a religious person,” Norris said.  “Where it’s at is fair to everyone but we need to make sure the speakers say in bounds. There are things they  shouldn’t say,” she said, referring to the naming of a specific deity, which amounts to proselytizing and is prohibited under the invocation policy.

Duncan McArthur, who was present when the meeting began, had hard a hard time containing his coughing. He was using a portable oxygen concentrator, said shortly into the meeting that he was recovering from bronchitis and excused himself before the invocation discussion began.

Grand Junction’s current mayor, Councilman Rick Taggart, said he grew up Presbyterian, almost went into the seminary when he was younger but went to school to get a degree instead, and thought similarly to Norris. He said he believes faith is “deep but individual,” and “my own private issue.”  Taggart said the City’s solution “tried as hard as possible to be fair” to everyone in town. He suggested that the City needed to do more, though, to let all individuals and organizations know they are welcome to put their name into the drawing to say invocations.

Chris Kennedy said city council represents everyone in town — “atheists, agnostics, buddhists,” and others. He pointed out that “It’s a fallacy to say we have a fair system when invocations are 90% Christian.” He disagreed with BTS that the United States is “a Christian nation” and said history proves it is not. Kennedy also said “We got rid of prayer in public schools a long time ago.” To this BTS grumbled aloud, “…And that’s what’s wrong with our schools today.” Kennedy said, “We aren’t doing a disservice to get rid of the invocation, we’re an outlier just having it. We need to concentrate on City business.”

How does the City find people to say invocations?

Grand Junction’s “Ten Commandments” tablet in front of City Hall in 2017 — another endorsement of Christianity displayed by City government. City Hall has no representation of any other religion on it’s lawn, even though people of other religions, and of no religion, live in Grand Junction.

City Manager Greg Caton explained that the City goes to the phone book to find people to invite to give invocations, saying “We’re proactively trying to get names into the purse,” referring to the black leather purse that is circulated at Council workshops to select invocation speakers. City administration puts little slips of paper with the names of people who have asked to say invocations into the purse, the purse is circulated around the table and Council members pull individual names out of the purse. The City then contacts the people who are chosen and sends them a letter saying they have an opportunity to say the invocation. If an invitee declines or doesn’t show up on their appointed day, Council has a moment of silence instead of prayers.

Mayor Taggart said Council needs to do more to “remind presenters to keep their comments more generic,” in regard to saying the name of Jesus Christ, “but we may need to do more.”

Kennedy said “The resolution itself is okay, but it’s practical application doesn’t meet the intended purpose. Who’s job is it to tell speakers not to say certain things?

Phyllis Norris said it is the mayor’s job to step in and tell people they’ve violated the policy.

Kennedy then said, “I wouldn’t want to do that if I was mayor.”

By the end of the meeting, Councilman Chris Kennedy had shown significant courage in standing up for what’s best for the City to be fair to all citizens and prevent controversy, but the majority of council members wanted to keep the current controversial invocation policy intact, and deal with whatever invocations some down the pike as a result. The one beneficial change to come out of the meeting is that now Council will be held accountable for putting and end to speakers proselytizing by saying the name of “Jesus Christ” or other deities during their invocations, and creating a consequence for those who repeatedly violate the ordinance.

It took ten years to get this far, but that’s all Council could squeeze out.


66 comments for “City Council chooses to keep mostly Christian prayers at public meetings

  1. American Patriot
    March 16, 2018 at 8:10 pm

    FBI’s Andrew McCabe caught in flagrante delicto.

    • Seamus
      March 17, 2018 at 7:49 am

      Yeah…I figured firing a career law enforcement officer in an effort to discredit them while furthering Trump’s efforts in obstruction of justice would be about your speed, and you’d crow about it like a scrawny dunghill rooster.
      You are just quite the Law and Order warrior, aren’t you?

      • American Patriot
        March 17, 2018 at 10:22 am

        And you the patron saint of liars. And your news flash is that liars do not a law enforcement officer make. An act of treason, yes. Think prison rather than pension. And you can thank the FBI’s Office of Professional Responsibility for your epiphany. More to follow.

        • Seamus
          March 17, 2018 at 2:25 pm

          I’m pretty secure with my loyalties. They don’t shift and twist with the winds, like a bag of crap on a rope.
          You used to proclaim to be on the side of the Law.
          You’re kneeling in front of the most corrupt President that’s ever held the office.
          Make up all the scenarios you like; so far, the only ones headed to prison are the people you have been fervently emulating; spineless, soulless, cowardly criminals who have sacrificed all decency and ethics to further their own ends.

          Eventually, you’ll claim you were against Trump all along.
          Because that’s how you roll.

          • American Patriot
            March 17, 2018 at 5:28 pm

            What you should know, Seamus lad, is that them going to jail wasn’t my first choice. You see, Trump isn’t your problem. The people who elected him are. And jail is not their first choice either. We shall finish the game.

          • Seamus
            March 18, 2018 at 9:42 am

            Again, with the vague threats, because you’re too much of a chickenshit to just come out and make declarative statement.
            Fantasizing is about all you have left, AP. Trump’s coming more unglued by the day, because he knows he can’t make the truth go away, as much as his followers grovel. As for his voters, have you been in a coma the last few months? Trump’s endorsement is the kiss of death for a candidate. What are you loons going to do, vote for someone even more corrupt next time? Or are you going to pretend you suddenly have a spine, and tell us what your “first choice” would be?

          • American Patriot
            March 18, 2018 at 10:25 am

            It’s sad that you spend so much of your time trying to feel threatened. My first choice would be that you would have sense enough to realize what you’re doing. But if you prefer victim status to common sense, then by all means, continue yourself. And then ask the 63 million Americans who voted for Trump; what comes after that? And I’m sure you’ll get an answer.

          • Seamus
            March 18, 2018 at 10:39 am

            No fully functioning adult could be threatened by you, AP. Give it up.
            As for voters, Sixty-six million voted against your lying, cheating, savior and puppet of the Russian oligarchy who openly brags about sexual assault. Of course, you don’t like to mention the truth.
            As for what comes after Trump (I love that you’re already trying to slink away from him, as predicted), recent elections are showing you what’s coming.
            You had your desperate shot to drag us back to the 50’s, and you staked it all on a proven con artist.
            Now, you’re trying to pretend it was all part of a Master Plan.
            How could anyone be threatened by that?

          • American Patriot
            March 18, 2018 at 10:52 am

            Well then son, I guess you just answered your own question. You feel empowered to nullify the election, because you didn’t like the results. And you do know there’s a name for that? It’s call diplomacy by other means. But if that’s what you want….

            But I’m sure you would never consider that a happening thing? First you ignore us, then you laugh at us, then you fight us, and then we win.

          • Seamus
            March 18, 2018 at 12:50 pm

            And there’s the latest distraction. I pointed out “the people” did not vote for your Messiah, and you claim I want to nullify it. No such thing occurred.
            Everything about you is pretend, even the arguments you “fight” against.

            You just can’t face facts, even from minute to minute.
            No one needs to nullify the election. Trump is doing it himself.
            Let me guess, Mueller, a lifelong Republican, a veteran (don’t make me explain what one of those is), a decorated war hero, is another member of the “Deep State”, just out to get your innocent man-child in the Oval Office. Funny how everyone except Trump’s hand-picked toadies are liars.

            And yes, it’s cute that you, a craven little bigot, would quote Ghandi (uncredited, of course…because stealing other people’s grand words is sort of your thing, too).
            How hollow is your soul, that you can’t even type without sucking off of another’s works?

            It’s probably a good thing you’ve created this sad little reality in your own head, where your cowardice isn’t apparent, your boasts don’t ring hollow, and anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together sees you as something other than a trembly little pretender. The real world must be terrifying to you.

          • American Patriot
            March 18, 2018 at 1:09 pm

            Take a look at the scoreboard. And I don’t know why McCabe lied, I just know that it was the FBI who recommended he be fired for lying. And of course, you knew that. But you decided to lie anyway. Like I’ve already told you once, you keep answering your own questions. Yup, no doubt about it, you’re a pretty fart smeller.

          • Seamus
            March 18, 2018 at 2:39 pm

            Scoreboard? Like, 20 indictments and 5 guilty pleas, so far?
            That’s the thing…a Grand Jury is made of normal people, not Trump toadies.
            They’ll see through the attack on McCabe, like Trump’s attacks on everyone who dares not lick his boots (providing they can push your head out of the way) and see it for what it really is. Just another smokescreen to protect a desperate, corrupt con artist.
            And, Trump, just like you, talks smack but doesn’t have the spine to actually back it up.

          • American Patriot
            March 18, 2018 at 2:58 pm

            Wow, sounds like impeachment is just around the next corner. And then what? Don’t you think that’s the point? Or will you cross that bridge when you come to it? Of course you will darling. It’s a bridge to nowhere. Crossing was your idea. And getting you there is mine. In that respect, we have a common interest.

          • Seamus
            March 18, 2018 at 7:26 pm

            Yeah, I know. Everything that happens in according to your plan, and no matter what happens, you’ll somehow try to take credit for it. You’re like a Bronco fan in a brand new hat on the Monday after the Super Bowl. No one’s fooled, and everyone knows you bend with whatever wind you think is strongest. Having no spine makes it a lot easier, I’ll bet.
            Of course, I could be wrong…U.S. Politics could very well be controlled by a scrawny little bigot in Western Colorado, who can apparently pull the strings of government just by typing about how important he really is.

          • American Patriot
            March 18, 2018 at 7:52 pm

            Scrawny? Thou doth assume too much. And what you don’t assume, you lie about. And that’s a study in itself.

          • Seamus
            March 19, 2018 at 9:30 am

            I’m speaking more in terms of character and intellect than of physical size.
            I have no interest in your physicality.
            No matter how much space you may take up, you’re still small.

          • American Patriot
            March 19, 2018 at 1:35 pm

            You’re not interested in my physicality? Well, there’s a piece of good news, what with you having so many self professed friends in the LGBTQ community. And your constant rants about public restrooms and all that closet time. I thought you might be inclined to the deviant persuasion. But I see now that you simply suck, and then regurgitate your product.

            So, as you can see, in spite of the fact that I do not feel a constant need to educate you, I do hold higher expectations and a lower opinion of your parent/parents decisions, although they had no way of knowing what they were opting for was arrested development.

            P.S. Adhominem attacks are easy. So easy even a cave man could do it. Why don’t you get real or grow up?

          • Seamus
            March 19, 2018 at 4:34 pm

            Ad hominem is two words.

            The fact that teabaggers chose restrooms to spread their Nazi-lovin’ message isn’t any indication of sexuality. I can’t take responsibility for where your mind goes. or why even a whiff of homoeroticism makes you go all cuh-razylike. By the way, what happened to that threat you were repeatedly making about “reporting” this website to the “authorities” ? Oh, right, it was the same as all of your threats, proclamations, and statements of grandiosity…complete and utter bullshit.
            As for insulting me with accusations about my sexuality, or that of my friends and loved ones, I’m okay with you thinking that’s an insult. It just doesn’t bother me.
            Considering the standards you keep, the idols you worship, and the “morals” that you claim to hold dear, an insult from you has to be taken as high praise. You’re the exact opposite of what a decent, thinking person should be.
            So, what else ya got? I like black people, too, if that helps.

          • American Patriot
            March 19, 2018 at 4:50 pm

            Which only leaves one to wonder why you sound so agitated? Faith based perhaps?

          • Seamus
            March 19, 2018 at 4:58 pm

            Agitated? Over what? What faith?
            I know you thinking you’re being cryptic, but really, you’re just babbling.
            Or, is this just another, “AP’s dug himself a hole again and is going to throw out random nonsensical questions as a smokescreen”?

          • American Patriot
            March 19, 2018 at 5:34 pm

            “Random nonsensical questions”. Is that like adhominem bullshit personal attacks as a smoke screen, based on the fact that you have nothing else, never have had, and never will have? And you’re trying not to show your desperation, because you can’t answer the simple question ; Then What? And sixty three million Trump voters can? Well, I could see where that might be a problem.

            “I know you thinking”? What kind of English do you speak again?

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 5:38 am

            Oh, that was a typographical error. See how easy that is, answering a question without foaming at the mouth and spewing a dozen questions as a distraction? Of course, it takes a few things you don’t have; like a spine.
            Trump had 63 million voters. Someone else had 66 million. I know math isn’t your strong suit (along with science, history, ethics, logic, honesty, decency, etc, etc, etc….) but maybe you could get someone to explain to you how while that didn’t win the election, it does matter. Especially now, that Trump’s support as dwindled to..well, people like you.

          • American Patriot
            March 20, 2018 at 7:59 am

            People like me? Well, then you have nothing to worry about? Right? And you can cross that bridge to nowhere when you come to it, just as so many others have. Still water runs deep. And thank God for those married white women, eh?

          • American Patriot
            March 20, 2018 at 8:40 am

            Hey, I think I’ve figured out a solution to your problem Seaman. What you’ll need to do is abolish the electoral college, and pass a law making the majority vote the decider in our elections. And get three quarters of the states to ratify your new Constitution. And while you’re at it, you can pick up coffee and dough-nuts.

            Oh my, how the fat lady does sing. And please remain standing for our National Anthem. And if you need help staying upright, with your hat off, it will be provided to you free of charge. Cause you’ve been Trumped. And if you’re still confused about that, it’s the old math. How does that add up for ya?

            You see, like Presidents, we only have one Constitution at a time. And until you can get all of that done, any aspirations you might have for your socialist agenda will pretty much be dead in the water. In the meantime, you may want to purchase a personal flotation device. And that’s all swamp water boy. Try not to get any of that on ya.

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 9:34 am

            Are you back to crowing and kowtowing to Trump again? So soon after backing away from him, claiming he wasn’t the real goal. Getting a position from you is like nailing Jell-O to a wall, you’ve just got no substance to hold on to.
            But to your “point”, Trump won, legally, by virtue of the EC. You were bleating about “the people”, I pointed out that more people voted against him. That’s not disputing the election, it’s disputing your claims about what it meant.
            Now, you’re back to babbling.
            National Anthem? Like standing up saluting, pretending you were in the military, means something? I stand and salute, just like I did every night during retreat. But I couldn’t care less what other people do.
            But, “taking a brave stand” over a song is about your speed.
            It’s not exactly like you’re taking a risk for your country.
            Risk and sacrifice are for people other than yourself.
            Sucking off of other people’s risks and sacrifices is what you do.

            So, go on…keep talking and hurling comically dated insults as if you actually matter…as if ever you’ve done anything that matters, except writing posts about how much you matter.
            There’s nothing you can say that’s going to offend or anger me, because there’s absolutely nothing about you that I can take seriously.

          • American Patriot
            March 20, 2018 at 10:36 am

            Offend or anger? How about agitate? Like I said, sounds agitated. And where did you get that imagination? Walmart? Back to ad hominem attacks huh? And why don’t you tell us about “your sacrifice”? You know you want to.

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 12:01 pm

            I have no need to talk about what I’ve done. I don’t claim the authority you do. I’m just a guy who did a job. You want to know something specific? Ask a direct question. I’ll tell you whether it’s your damned business or not; because, as you’ve shown, you can’t be trusted with personal information.
            You bleat like a wounded animal that some on this blog can “vouch” for you, and then turn around and demand they answer your accusations. You take advantage of the fact that the tolerant policies of a “left-leaning” blog allow you to be here (unlike so many other sites, past and present), and yet, you threaten Ms. Landman and malign her personally.
            Simply put, you have no honor. You have one set of rules for yourself, and one for everyone else. Actually, that’s not accurate. I’ve never seen you follow any rule except, “Don’t answer a specific question”.

            You don’t like what I say? Refute it. Again, direct statements are not something you are accustomed to making, because you can’t run the risk of contradicting yourself, or getting caught in a lie. So, you ask questions to distract from ever answering any, and make empty accusations (in the form of a question, of course), to cast aspersions without having the guts to do it openly.

            That’s why I don’t need an imagination to know what you’re all about.
            The way you act here is a clear enough indicator. You’re an amoral coward, even when you’re shielded by anonymity. Why would the real you be any braver?

            I simply can’t be threatened, offended, agitated, or have any emotional reaction to you. And, if that’s your intention, congratulations! You’ve just admitted you’re a troll.
            There’s nothing real about you. Hell, the persona you’ve tried to build online is so hilariously thin and baseless, I’d be surprised if the real you wasn’t somehow completely translucent.

          • American Patriot
            March 20, 2018 at 12:17 pm

            And so, you ask questions to avoid answering a specific question about your “sacrifice”. Well, how about this one; was your “sacrifice” combat related, or in any way related to a tour of duty in the United States Air Force? Are you currently receiving VA benefits or compensation? What “decorations” were you awarded? And did you receive an honorable discharge, verifiable in your DD214? Is that specific enough for you to answer? And can you tell me why I believe that it won’t be? If you’re nothing else, at least you’re transparent.

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 12:23 pm

            Since you do not provide, and have never provided, any specific information of the kind you’re demanding, I’m justified in saying that none of that is any of your goddamned business. And why should it be?

          • American Patriot
            March 20, 2018 at 12:37 pm

            Just because you’ve been caught in flagrante delicto, is no reason to take the Lord’s name in vain. Jesus loves you, in spite of your lack of candor. And of course, you already know about his documented sacrifice, on your behalf? And now you know why they say there are no atheists in a fox hole. Maybe you could just tell us what war you were injured in? Or perhaps just give us a hint; was it a hot or cold war injury? You do know don’t you?

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 1:00 pm

            In flagrante delicto? What crime are you alleging I’ve committed, sexual or otherwise?
            You don’t know the actual meanings of most of the words you use, do you?
            Again, no statements, just questions.

          • American Patriot
            March 20, 2018 at 1:32 pm

            You sound a lot like a man desperately seeking a change of subject. You asked for specific questions related to your online claims of military service in Southeast Asia, with vague reference to your “sacrifice”. But the more specific the questions get, the more evasive you become. Why is that? Is it because you know that claiming to possess military “decorations” not awarded to you is a crime? Is that why you’re dancing like a whirling dervish. Step up to the plate. Be a man. You asked for it, and you got it, and now the ball is in your court.

            Did your “sacrifice” merit your being awarded the Purple Heart medal? Now isn’t that an easy yes or no question?

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 4:38 pm

            Show me where I claimed any of those things. You know how to copy and paste links, don’t you?

          • Seamus
            March 20, 2018 at 4:41 pm

            Correction, I did serve. I never claimed a Purple Heart, or a personal sacrifice.

          • Seamus
            March 21, 2018 at 6:33 pm

            I’m going to make this clear, just so there’s no confusion. I’m a veteran. I don’t have a DD-214, I have an NA – 13038, because my DD-214 was destroyed. I’d be glad to send a copy of that to Ms. Landman for verification of my veteran’s status and my Honorable Discharge. If you think I’m going to give a sick little individual like you the kind of personal information you’re demanding, you’re even sicker and crazier than I thought. First, because as usual, you have no right to any information about anyone, and second, because no one in their right mind would trust you with that. You’ve proven you’ll turn on anyone at any time. You’re a dishonest, disingenuous, hypocritical little weasel, and too stupid to realize that “Stolen Valor” isn’t applicable to anonymous yahoos on the internet. Of course, the fact that you would bring up even the concept of Stolen Valor is monumentally hypocritical. Everything about you; your patriotic bluster, your all-knowing poses, and your allusions to real service, are stolen from others.

            I’m entitled to join both the American Legion and the VFW if I so choose. I don’t.
            I don’t avail myself of the VA, because there are so many other people who need and deserve it more than I.

            You think I’m ashamed that I wasn’t in combat? I was lucky.
            You think someone…anyone has to answer to the likes of you for not having a Purple Heart, or not having some sort of service or sacrifice you deem honorable? The lowest ranking cook on a stateside base has more honor and dignity than you could ever hope for.

            The fact that you, of all people, would question anyone else’s service is laughable.
            You don’t upset me. You disgust me.

  2. American Patriot
    March 8, 2018 at 6:21 am

    I just did.

    • Seamus
      March 8, 2018 at 6:38 am

      Of course you did.
      Now, if you had a spine, you’d actually make a declarative statement, instead of BS cowardly allusions and hints that you “know” something about anything.
      But as everyone knows, that’s not your style.

      • American Patriot
        March 8, 2018 at 8:16 am

        As I recall, you declared unilaterally that I would not be allowed to use my screen name “American Patriot” to post on this blog. And that pretty much knows what you know.

        • Seamus
          March 8, 2018 at 9:47 am

          “Declared unilaterally”? What are you babbling about?
          This is someone else’s blog, you contemptible little fool.
          That’s the most bizarre distraction yet.
          You can use whatever self-aggrandizing title you choose. It’s still a free country, no thanks to you.
          Call yourself whatever you want, co-opt other people’s actions and sacrifices as much as you like. It has as much credence as your Cheeto Messiah calling himself a Stable Genius.

          • American Patriot
            March 8, 2018 at 11:31 am

            Oh my, you are an angry little man. You really should ease back on the “yayo” a bit, before you hurt yourself.

          • Seamus
            March 8, 2018 at 12:10 pm

            No, there’s no anger here, AP. You presume too much and assign yourself far too much importance, as is your wont. If I were angry, that would mean you have some degree of impact, however slight, on my life, or to have some standing other than a rando on the internet who likes to pretend he’s Captain America (Of course, Captain America was an actual military member at one time). You don’t.

            It doesn’t require anger to point out a dog turd on the sidewalk. The turd doesn’t win by being noticed. It’s just a statement of objective fact. The turd can choose to believe otherwise, if it makes them feel better. But it’s just a turd.

          • American Patriot
            March 8, 2018 at 3:53 pm

            No anger? You could have fooled me.

          • Seamus
            March 8, 2018 at 6:23 pm

            That’s because your’re determined to fool yourself into thinking you have any effect on anyone else. Trolling “left-leaning” blogs and trying to piss people off with constant half-truths, passive-aggressive accusations, thread-jacking, and impotently declaring victory is about all you have left.
            It would be sad, if it wasn’t a completely self-inflicted condition.
            Anger just doesn’t enter into it.

          • American Patriot
            March 8, 2018 at 6:35 pm

            And all of that outrage because I asked two simple questions. The first was not addressed to you, unless of course you claim to speak for Western Colorado Atheists and Free Thinkers.

            The second question was “do you believe in magic”? And I assume that’s the one that you’re afraid to answer. Does your response seem a bit disproportionate? Do you own a chainsaw? Never mind, I don’t want to know. Have you ever heard of the Baker Act?

          • Seamus
            March 9, 2018 at 6:10 am

            The only thing sillier than the idea that you engender anger is that you somehow engender fear. No one is afraid of anything you ask; it’s that many things simply are not your business, especially when it comes to people’s religious beliefs, or lack thereof. I’m no atheist, and I’m not a member of any atheist group. That’s all you need to know, and it’s more than you have a right to know. Why do you think someone else’s personal religious beliefs are any of your damned business? Nothing gives you that right, not Jesus, not Trump, and not your own bloated sense of self-importance. The question of invocations at a government meeting is a Constitutional question, not a religious one.
            As to your insistence that only a member of a certain group respond to your demands for answers, unless you’d care to hold yourself to that same standard (and anyone who’s read this blog knows that’s something you just don’t do), like most of your demands, it’s meaningless.
            The rest of your questions are just the usual “don’t have the guts to just say something straight out, so I’ll make allusions”, and, as such, they can be ignored, until you manage to gather up enough courage to actually make a statement.

          • American Patriot
            March 9, 2018 at 7:32 am

            And so you’ve reached a decision not to answer the questions that weren’t addressed to you. Magic!

            The posted subject was invocations. And the last time your atheists had their names drawn from the hat, they deferred to the Satanic Temple as their go to prayer maker. An interesting relationship, don’t you think? And of course, inquiring minds want to know? So see, all your upset, fear and anger were totally unwarranted.

            No one asked you, but to avoid confusion in the future, if we wish to hear your opinion or one of your irrational rants, we’ll just address the question to “resident troll”. And I’m truly sorry about the loss of your bridge…..and your mind.

          • Seamus
            March 9, 2018 at 7:58 am

            Are you sure you want to exclude me so soon, AP?
            If you haven’t noticed, I’m about the only one left here (as in so many other venues) who’ll even deign to acknowledge you anymore.

          • American Patriot
            March 9, 2018 at 8:57 am

            Oh, I wasn’t excluding you, I was simply dismissing you. But I was hoping to contact someone rational over here. I see now that’s hopeless, because they’re all down at the Satanic Temple worshiping their deity of choice while pretending not to be atheists. Which begs the question; why did they leave you behind?

          • Seamus
            March 9, 2018 at 9:12 am

            “Begging the Question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself. If the premise is questionable, then the argument is bad.”

            Ironically, Begging the Question is something you do quite a lot of, as in your usual “too chickenshit to actually accuse someone of anything” manner. It’s ironic, because you obviously don’t understand the term.

            Ignorance is excusable; willful ignorance is worse, but belligerent ignorance does seem to be your stock in trade.

          • American Patriot
            March 9, 2018 at 9:26 am

            Well, son, you’re the one that said you’re the only one left on this site. I was just taking your word for it. And inquiring as to why you felt you had been left behind (out of courtesy). But the answer is obvious. I just attempted to include you in that determination, lest you feel excluded. Go back under the bridge and someone will come along in good time to relieve you of that responsibility. Perhaps not by choice, but rather by necessity.

          • Seamus
            March 9, 2018 at 9:55 am

            So, it is your accusation that the Atheists are secret Satanists, or that the Satanists are secret Atheists?
            Do you even know the difference?

          • American Patriot
            March 9, 2018 at 10:27 am

            Or the better question; who cares? But you’re doing a really good job manning your bridge, even as you say you’re not one. So obviously you would be the wrong person to ask and perhaps that’s why I didn’t ask you in the first place? But did I mention, you’re doing a really good job and they chose absolutely the right person to explain their position to anyone that might ask? I think we can all see that.

            So if I want to talk to a real atheist, where would you refer me to? The Satanic Temple? Well, that figures.

          • Seamus
            March 9, 2018 at 12:58 pm

            Did your meds kick in, or wear off? You’re even less coherent than usual.
            Babbling about Satanists and Atheists and clearly too dumb to know the difference. Or is every belief system that’s not American “Christianity” the same as Satanism, to your feeble, frightened little mind?

          • American Patriot
            March 9, 2018 at 1:39 pm

            Well Seamus, you may recall that’s what my original question was about. “What is Western Colorado Atheists and Free Thinker’s “official” position on a Santeria invocation? And do you believe in magic? You’ll need to pay attention here, or the
            whole point of this exercise may escape you.

            Now, it’s none of my business, but it’s possible that you’ve lost something already? But I wouldn’t worry about it, your friends probably won’t even notice. And I thank you for your time, in spite of the fact that you haven’t done anything except embarrass yourself….and perhaps your faith based belief system.

            And I would tell you it’s been a real pleasure talking to you, in spite of the fact that neither one of us know what you’re talking about. But oh, did I mention, you’re doing such a great job with that troll bridge that you’re to be commended. Pure Magic.

            So let us both assume that you have nothing further to offer in the way of the information requested and nothing else of interest to offer. And since there are no longer any atheists on this site, all that’s left for me to do is go in search of those elusive atheists in the sure and certain hope of a resurrection and perhaps even a willingness to discuss the issue? Trolls really hold no interest to me. They’re just so… so common.

            P.S. Are you still using Anne Landman’s blog as the name of this site? And is that the same Anne Landman that was previously the director of Western Colorado Atheists? What ever happened to her? Did she come to Jesus?

          • American Patriot
            March 9, 2018 at 1:41 pm

            Seamus, you may recall that’s what my original question was about. “What is Western Colorado Atheists and Free Thinker’s “official” position on a Santeria invocation? And do you believe in magic? You’ll need to pay attention here, or the
            whole point of this exercise may escape you.

            Now, it’s none of my business, but it’s possible that you’ve lost something already? But I wouldn’t worry about it, your friends probably won’t even notice. And I thank you for your time, in spite of the fact that you haven’t done anything except embarrass yourself….and perhaps your faith based belief system.

            And I would tell you it’s been a real pleasure talking to you, in spite of the fact that neither one of us know what you’re talking about. But oh, did I mention, you’re doing such a great job with that troll bridge that you’re to be commended. Pure Magic.

            So let us both assume that you have nothing further to offer in the way of the information requested and nothing else of interest to offer. And since there are no longer any atheists on this site, all that’s left for me to do is go in search of those elusive atheists in the sure and certain hope of a resurrection and perhaps even a willingness to discuss the issue? Trolls really hold no interest to me. They’re just so… so common.

            P.S. Are you still using Anne Landman’s blog as the name of this site? And is that the same Anne Landman that was previously the director of Western Colorado Atheists? What ever happened to her? Did she come to Jesus?

          • Seamus
            March 9, 2018 at 4:28 pm

            I can’t speak for Ms. Landman, as I’ve never met her. I can only assume that she, like others, doesn’t feel the need to respond to queries from a quavering little nutbag who soils himself in fear of Satan, and who still won’t muster up the spine to do anything but “ask questions” instead of just making declarative statements about what he thinks.

            Lemme show you how this works:

            What part of the Tea Party’s “No Touching Yourself During Meetings” rule caused you to part company with them?
            When did you stop hanging around the VFW in the vain hopes you’d be invited in, and thus be able to say you’d been inside, leading people to believe you’d earned membership?
            How does a “man” who styles himself a brave Patriot justify skulking around the fringes of Mesa County politics, informing on his own party, and cowering behind anonymity, rather than just standing up and declaring his beliefs, you know, like an actual Patriot?
            and finally,
            Why do you think anyone would take you seriously?

          • American Patriot
            March 10, 2018 at 6:57 am

            Trash, talking, does not an alpha make. I think it was the inflatable Obama comfort doll that betrayed you. The question is; why run your mouth and remove all doubt? Eating meat doesn’t make you a meat eater, but it does define you.

          • Seamus
            March 10, 2018 at 7:21 am

            You keep thinking that calling me gay is some kind of insult. That doesn’t bother me. I have plenty of loved ones in the LGBTQ community. I’d be more specific, but as Ms. Landman and others in Mesa County have learned, having you know anything about them will eventually be used against them. I’d just rather not know a sniveling little coward like you knows anything about someone I care about. The idea is distasteful, and it just shows what a backward, ignorant little bigot you are. It’s not the 50’s anymore. No one except people like you have such an obsession about other people’s sexual orientations. It’s as stupid as insulting someone over their hair or eye color. But, if that’s what it takes to make you feel like an “Alpha” (as comically dated as that term is), have at it. At least it shows people what you’re really all about. God knows, it’s not like you’ve actually done anything tangible to prove your “manhood”, except type vague accusations and self-aggrandizing bullshit.

            Everything about you is phony, AP. Right down to screen name, taken from people who’ve actually done the things you claim to. Your claims of relevance, your appropriations of other people’s acts and sacrifices, and your allegiance to a God who approves of your constant lying and hypocrisy.
            That’s why you’re so desperate.
            Typing bullshit about yourself is really all you’ve got left.
            Kind of a sad way to slide towards the end, when you think about it.

          • American Patriot
            March 10, 2018 at 9:36 am

            You’ve defined yourself Seamus. You are what you eat, and you obviously like it mo beta.

          • Seamus
            March 10, 2018 at 10:43 am

            Yeah, everyone knows you’re a racist as well as a bigot, AP…that’s not news to anyone.
            Anything else you got? You’ve pretty much reached the bottom of your tired bag of tricks, except perhaps your usual end game of feigning superiority, declaring yourself the victor, and scurrying away until next time. That can’t be far off.

  3. American Patriot
    March 7, 2018 at 8:40 am

    What is Western Colorado Atheists and Free Thinker’s “official” position on a Santeria invocation? And do you believe in magic?

    • Seamus
      March 7, 2018 at 11:43 am

      If they’re Atheists, wouldn’t they have the same position about anyone’s religion?

      • American Patriot
        March 7, 2018 at 12:53 pm

        Well that was the question. But if you have to speculate, and can’t answer the question directly, then we can only assume you don’t know the answer or you don’t speak for the atheists? Or perhaps, you are an atheist and you can answer the question, but you would prefer to dodge it? Now why would that be? Whose blog is this anyway? 😉

        • Seamus
          March 7, 2018 at 2:26 pm

          As for me, I’m not an atheist. I just know how to read.
          As for you, I’m curious as to why you think anyone feels they have to answer yet another round of questions from a spineless little contrarian who does nothing but hurl empty accusations in the form of questions?
          But perhaps you’re too stupid, or craven to see that?

          • American Patriot
            March 7, 2018 at 4:13 pm

            I would ask why you see things as you obviously do, but that would be redundant. 😉 Sometimes no answer says a lot.

          • Seamus
            March 8, 2018 at 4:54 am

            No one has to answer for your ignorance, AP.
            You’re such a hotshot investigative reporter, find out for yourself.

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